Prof. Megan O’Neill shares her experiences of EDI in higher education and discusses her research in police policies and procedures for stop and search. 
(Recording duration 21 minutes and 54 seconds)
LC: Today I’m joined by Professor Megan O’Neill, who is Professor of Criminology at the University of Dundee in the Division of Energy, Environment and Society. Megan’s research engages with police practise and culture both in Scotland and internationally. She’s the associate director of the Police Community Relations network, which is part of the Scottish Institute for Policing Research. Welcome, Megan. It’s good to have you with us. Can you begin by telling us a little bit about yourself? How did you come to be involved with your area of research? Why does it hold such interest for you?
MO: Well, I think maybe the origins stem from my time when I was an undergraduate student in a small college in Michigan. I was employed for a while as a security officer on campus, and it was a job I got into because a friend of mine was doing it and I thought, well, that looks like I could do that. Sure. Whatever. My mother was always absolutely horrified by this and I said, don’t worry, Mom. I have a very large torch, and I know how to use it and that seemed to pacify her concerns. So I spent a little bit of time in security. Didn’t really think much about it. And then when I came to do my PhD, I wasn’t entirely convinced about the subject I was doing. It was linked to the issues of sport and nationalism, and it was kind of all over the place. And I ended up in my first year meeting a police officer who was doing a Master’s degree part time. And he said, oh, well, you’re a poor student – should I get you into a football match for free? You know, you’re studying sport. And I said yes, that would be amazing. But we literally went in through the police door. So he took me in, you know, through the in effect, you know, through the back door, the way the police go. And also I got to see the police briefing and I got to go through all the, you know, the back areas. And I just realised that seeing that seeing football through the police lens was absolutely fascinating. At that time there was a lot of research around hooliganism – it was a big topic, especially in Scotland, but it nobody had really researched the policing side of it. And I do sometimes wonder if my early experiences in security had kind of, you know, started to twig my brain a little bit in that direction.
So once I realised that the policing side had been under researched, that’s where I took my point of departure and so completely changed my thesis, much to my supervisor’s horror. But it was what I was passionate about, so I did it anyway. And yeah, it just kind of spiralled from there. So after my PhD finished, I kind of needed to decide if I was going to focus on the sports side or the policing side. You know, no prizes for guessing which way I ended up going. I got a postdoc position after that looking at Black police associations in England and Wales, and so that just developed my career from then onwards.
LC: Is there a moment from your career that you’d like to share with us that tells something or illustrates something about your experience with equality, diversity, and inclusion issues, either in higher education, in your career or more broadly than that?
MO: I think what first comes to mind is a personal experience of my own, which was when I was coming to the end of my time as a research associate in a previous institution. I was applying all over the place for a permanent jobs as a lecturer. And I had been shortlisted for an interview. Unfortunately, the date of the interview was two days before my due date when I was pregnant with my first child. So I made the institution aware that I was heavily pregnant. Could I bring a friend? And they said yes, that was fine. So I was in the process of preparing for the job interview when I realised I was having contractions and needless to say, I didn’t quite make that job interview. My poor husband was birthing poolside, phoning my prospective employer, saying she, yeah, she’s not going to make it. But to give them credit, they not only postponed my interview for two weeks to enable me to come, and at that point my mother was with me so she could look after the baby, they postponed it and then in the end I was hired. I was offered the position and I accepted it and that was my first lectureship job at the University of Salford in Greater Manchester. They said to me afterwards that that was the first time in the history of their school they had ever postponed a job interview. You know, normally if you don’t make it, that’s it. But in in my head I was thinking well, I don’t think you should be getting a medal for that. I mean that that’s just sort of what you should be doing is to, you know, allow for a heavily pregnant woman to postpone an interview by a few days, so that that was one. And then similarly same institution in a subsequent pregnancy, I was up for promotion and I was on maternity leave and you know, they agreed to do the interview online or, you know, at a distance rather than in person, because I was on maternity leave. So for me personally, I’ve had some positive experiences when it comes to, you know, ED and I-related issues, in that, yeah, the institution made the reasonable adjustments to enable me to further my career as I should have been the case. I know not everyone has a positive experience. Mine was.
Another example that comes to mind was a time when I needed to take some time off work for personal reasons and coming back into university was going to be difficult. So my employers, in an effort to make that transition easier for me, gave me the option to return full time on paper, but in effect to do you know, part time work or whatever I could manage at that time, to enable me to come back kind of on paper but not fully. You know, they and it was seen as a gesture of goodwill that, you know, for all you know, we’ll pay you full time. But, you know, you don’t actually have to do full time work if you’re not up for it, it’s fine. And at the time, I thought that was helpful, but in subsequently it turned out not to be helpful, the reason being that if on paper I looked like I was full time, but I was not returning full time work, then when it came to things like the REF, there were questions about why was all this time not spent, you know, producing publications or getting grants or this sort of thing? So I do think there’s also an element of some people being too eager to help and without really sort of thinking through the ramifications of what that might mean, you know, sort of down the road. So that is another aspect where it kind of backfired. And I think sometimes these measures need to be put in place with a degree of awareness of you know what the long term ramifications might be for example.
LC: One of the areas of police work that you’ve been looking at closely is stop and search legislation in practise, can you tell us a little bit about that for anybody who’s not so familiar with it?
MO: Sure. So stop and search is a power that the police have in in many countries, not just Scotland but internationally, that enables them to stop a member of the public to check to see if they’re carrying anything that they shouldn’t be, either a prohibited item or something that might be linked to a crime. So an individual would be, would be stopped and the officers would search the person, check their pockets, check their bags and to see what they’re what they have on them. The issue in in Scotland was that for many years in Scotland this practise was operating without any significant accountability or oversight, and there’s a lot of reasons for this. They’re kind of complex but I think there was a narrative in Scotland that issues with stop and search were to do with racism. That Scotland was perceived to be not a racist country. The issue was seen to be an English problem because it was England had all these issues with racism, stop and search was being done in a racist way in England, but that doesn’t affect us because we’re not racist. So it was largely ignored for many, many years. However, what was happening was especially in the late 90s until the 2000s, there was a large issue with knife crime in in Glasgow, in particular for you know, again for various reasons and stop and search started to be used at a very large scale and this was kind of flying under the radar for many years. When when the 8 police forces in Scotland were amalgamated in 2013, when the person who had been leading the police in Glasgow then became the head of all of Police Scotland, he rolled out this this volume stop search practise across Scotland, so it suddenly became a national issue. And what emerged from research that was going on at the time, in particular from a PhD student, Cath Murray, was that stop and search in Scotland was being done disproportionately against children and young people, and it in particular, it seemed to be working class white boys were the primary target for searches in Scotland. It also emerged that the databases were a mess and there was no sort of accountability for what was happening and that’s what started stop and search reform in Scotland that I was involved in.
LC: And what impact has your work had in this area now that you’ve been looking at it for a while and made some of these findings?
MO: The reason I first got involved is because Police Scotland started to come under really intense pressure in the media and in political circles in 2015. So they developed a first attempt at sort of reforming the practise and this was a pilot that they ran in the Fife division. So myself and my colleague Liz Aston put in a bid to evaluate this pilot and we were successful and it was actually quite a small grant and this is something that’s also interesting if we think about impact. I think the grant was worth £32,000 and what it primarily did was it paid for a research assistant for a very short period of time. So we evaluated the pilot and we found some aspects of good practise, but a lot of it was really questionable. So our findings in effect stopped Police Scotland from doing certain things that they proposed to do that we thought would actually be more detrimental than helpful. But following on from that, Liz and I continue to be involved in the ongoing reform process and we were consulted in a in a variety of fora. To be honest, it continues to this day. So ultimately what happened was a code of practise was introduced in legislation, so now Police Scotland have a statutory accountability mechanism they have to follow. They had previously been using a practise of non-statutory search or what they called consensual search, which meant they could walk up to somebody and say can I have a look in your pockets? What they didn’t say was you have the right to say no and as you can imagine a lot of children wouldn’t dare, you know, say no to a police officer. So that practise of consensual stop and search was made prohibited by law. So that’s no longer possible. So all searches in Scotland must have a ground grounds in legislation. There has to be reasonable suspicion for a certain number of restricted categories. So it’s much more legally accountable. Now there’s a code of practise and the database has been completely overhauled and is much more reliable than it was and I was involved in a lot of the consultation that went into some of these adjustments and I continue to work with Police Scotland now, just, you know, in terms of making sure that practise is maintained. The other issue with working with the police is there’s a constant churn, that people get promoted, they move from one division to another and to be honest, this group that I’m still attending, I’m the longest serving member of this group and that includes the Chair and the Secretary. Everybody has changed. And so part of my job, I think, is to help maintain institutional memory for what went on before so we don’t go back to previous practise that that was a concern.
LC: How does work in Scotland in this area compare? I mean obviously you spoke about the difference from other parts of the UK, but just thinking about other parts of the world as well, I mean how far ahead or behind are we in comparison with others?
MO: The Scotland story is one that I’ve been working really hard to communicate across the EU. So along with with Liz from Napier, we were involved in an EU cost action. Cost actions are funding that the EU gives to promote networks of researchers. So it’s not about generating new data. It’s not about empirical research. It’s about connecting researchers in a field. So we were part of a stop and search cost action called ‘pole stops’ and through that we have told the Scotland story to many colleagues from different countries which has encouraged some of them to come to Scotland to learn more about the reform process. And that’s because what’s happened in Scotland far outstrips anything that’s happened in any other country. I mean, earlier I mentioned in England and Wales has had issues with stop and search for many decades. There’s been some tweaks to changing practise, but nothing really sort of significant and you know the disproportionality there was around ethnicity. In Scotland, it’s not about ethnicity, it’s due to age. So what we saw in Scotland was this dramatic overhaul of practise, including a change in legislation that happened within the span of just a couple of years. It it’s night and day different from what it used to be. It’s far more accountable. However, there is sort of this lingering question about it’s that it wasn’t to do with ethnicity. I think that is something we do need to reflect on. That age is much less, you know, problematic to measure than when it comes to ethnicity. We know if somebody what age somebody is, that’s pretty clear cut, whereas ethnicity is a much more heated topic. There’s a lot of baggage behind it. And so I do think we need to kind of keep in mind that because the ethnicity question wasn’t really considered in Scotland. This might be part of why the change was so far reaching in the way that it was. However, that’s not to say there isn’t important lessons that can be learned from the Scottish experience. And so I yeah, it has been really interesting to see what practise can be adopted by other jurisdictions or what can’t. So for example, some countries in the EU are legally prohibited from asking their population that kind of demographic information like about ethnicity or religious affiliation and so if they can’t measure it, if they can’t collect those data. It’s really difficult to prove that there’s disproportionality happening.
LC: Can you tell us what the theoretical or conceptual frames are that help you with your work in this area? Are there particular voices you find useful?
MO: Absolutely. So the so the two main concepts that I’ve been engaging with in this is procedural justice and then the larger concept of organisational justice. Procedural justice stems from psychology research, actually, but it’s gained huge influence in criminology circles. Procedural justice is considered the way in which a member of the public is treated by a person in authority, say a police officer, for example. Or it could be a prison guard or, you know, probation officer or whatever the case may be. If a person feels like they have been listened to, that they have voice, that they’re being treated with respect, that they’re being treated fairly and that there’s, you know, fair outcomes and accountability there, then they are more likely to engage with that person of authority and more likely to be satisfied with the outcome, even if it means they, you know, for example, get arrested or have a fine. So even if the outcome is negative, if they feel like there’s been procedural justice that what happened was done was procedurally fair, they’re more likely to be satisfied with the outcome and to engage further, you know, with authorities. So procedural justice has been a huge aspect of research in criminology and in particular to stop and search that when a police officer stops a member of the public, that if it’s done in procedurally just way, then usually the outcome is better for, for everyone concerned. For me though, the bigger picture though, is to do with organisational justice and sort of ensure that that’s making sure we have procedural justice with employees.
So that officers within Police Scotland or any police organisation similarly feel like they’re being listened to, that there’s two way communication, that they’re being treated fairly, that resources are shared evenly, they’re being rewarded for, you know, for good practise things like that. So I think what happened in Scotland is we can see that the changes to stop and search have made it more procedurally just. However, the way that was put in place was not organisationally just; that it happened at speed with very little communication with the officers concerned. They were not consulted in what happened and from their perspective it was done to them. My former PhD student Estelle Clayton did some fantastic research on this and she showed that through her PhD that there was this narrative in the officers she spoke to that tied the stop and search reform to the amalgamation of Police Scotland and that both processes were done badly, were done to them, and that they felt under attack by their own organisation. You know, on the on the one hand they were told to do all this volume stop and search and then they were told to stop doing it and then almost blamed for the negative outcome that had happened in the press. So the reform process was not organisationally just and that has caused a lot of ill feeling among officers and Estelle does kind of identify some negative consequences for how this has impacted the way stop and search is done with young people.
LC: So you’ve maybe touched on this already, when you’re talking about your PhD student, but who’s working this field? Do you admire and what is it that you that you find admirable in it?
MO: For me, I think there’s three people I’d like to highlight and absolutely one of them is a style and her work. So she’s she finished her pH da few years ago and has gone on to do other research. But the work she did has just blown me away that, you know, she’s especially in this field of policing. Estelle did work, did research that we call ethnography. So she was out on patrol with police officers, you know, in the cars, speaking to them as they were doing their work in the cold, at night, in the dark, you know all these sorts of conditions and the data she collected from that is so rich and her insights into that work are just so phenomenal. It really kind of, you know, took me aback, when I was reading her draft thesis, just how fantastic it was. And she articulates what she does really, really well.
In a similar vein, there’s another researcher from the University of Bangor called Bethan Loftus and Bethan is a Reader, and I first came across Bethan when I was already a lecturer and I was putting together an edited book about police culture and she was a PhD student at the time doing her own ethnographic research on police culture. She submitted a chapter. I’d never heard of her before, but it was one of the most brilliant things I’ve ever read and then she went on to publish work that has just become, you know, the touchstone for work, for police culture research, in my field. Anybody who talks about police culture will mention Bethan and her work that she did on this topic.
For me, that they’re both examples of women who, at the time were young and going into these environments that are heavily male dominated, you know, not exclusively but policing is very male and not only in terms of who does it, but also in the way that it’s done. And it’s seen as quite a physical, at times sort of aggressive, you know, macho kind of environment. And for these women to be young and new, and to go into these spaces and put themselves out there is just phenomenal. I know from my own experience what a challenge it is and they’ve turned around some really amazing work.
And then the final person I wanted to mention is my colleague Liz Aston, who’s now a professor at Edinburgh Napier. She’s the director of the Scottish Institute for Policing Research. Liz is just a powerhouse in terms of the her ability to connect Policing with the field, with practitioners, and to connect policing research with practitioners so to bring our work as academics into policing in a way that’s useful, but also in a way that challenges constructively, that we don’t just sit back and tell the police what they want to hear. We do challenge practice. We do raise issues when we see them, but we do it in as constructive a way as we can and Liz is just amazing at being able to organise us as policing scholars to do that and she serves as a really brilliant example of how scholarship can be brought into the field in a very impactful way.
LC: So a few little questions just to wrap up, just to help people get to know you a little bit. What’s your favourite movie?
MO: Oh, right. Well, I think at the moment, it depends on the time of year. Generally speaking, it’s the Big Lebowski by the Coen brothers. Every time I watch it, I pick up something new from that. It’s just hysterical. But because we’re coming into Christmas, I have to say it’s a wonderful life as my other absolute favourite movie.
LC: That one works in our house too. What’s your favourite snack food?
MO: Oh, what’s my favourite snack food? Again, that’s another one kind of depends on the time of year and how I’m feeling. But I think if it’s getting close to dinner time and I really can’t hold off any longer, I tend to eat just like mixed nuts or something like that. It’s not very exciting.
LC: Not exciting but very healthy. Excellent role modelling. Last but not least, what’s your favourite place to be? Or where is your favourite place to be?
MO: Oh, well, over lockdown. I discovered that I had no hobbies. I think at the time my hobby was travelling for work, which is really quite a pathetic hobby. So because I couldn’t do that I started thinking about, you know, what else could I do? And I realised that, you know, I work with geographers, and I could see on Facebook loads of my colleagues going up all the Scottish Hills and having wonderful adventures outside, and I thought I could do that. Why can’t I do that? I could do that. And so, you know, one thing led to another, and I’ve now started bagging Munros, so I’ve been up. What have I been up like 23 Munros? I think at this point and I absolutely love it. So my favourite place to be I think is up a hill in the Scottish Highlands and having a fantastic view – hopefully a view, not always a view – and then since then I’ve also started camping, like wild camping, too. So that’s a lovely frosty morning with a cup of coffee and a wilderness is my idea of a good time.
LC: That’s fantastic. Thank you so much for speaking with us today. Megan, it’s been lovely to talk to you.
MO: Thank you. My pleasure.
